EV & Reality

Dirks9901

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EV won the race to market with a viable product. EV batteries burn, but at least they don't explode with as much vigor.

I understand that is a concern. Point is there isn't a "push" to further develop Hydrogen. EV is more viable on the surface level/end product IMO. EV technology is pushed even though they haven't quite figured out:

How to mine for the material/lithium safely and build them to where the net affect on the environment isn't worse then ICE.

oh and do it without being devastating to the environment/climate which they claim to care so much about

oh and having a plan to build a "green" infrastructure to power them (because it pointless if we can't)

oh and the massive undertaking to recycle EV car/Batteries, only after they figure out how to recycle them.

Maybe "they" will figure this out and maybe they won't before the earth is set on fire in 12 years. There isn't a guarantee. EV is the future only because we were told its going to be and not necessarily because it was the best choice when we see this shake out on 10 years.
 

Weather Man

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I understand that is a concern. Point is there isn't a "push" to further develop Hydrogen. EV is more viable on the surface level/end product IMO. EV technology is pushed even though they haven't quite figured out:

How to mine for the material/lithium safely and build them to where the net affect on the environment isn't worse then ICE.

oh and do it without being devastating to the environment/climate which they claim to care so much about

oh and having a plan to build a "green" infrastructure to power them (because it pointless if we can't)

oh and the massive undertaking to recycle EV car/Batteries, only after they figure out how to recycle them.

Maybe "they" will figure this out and maybe they won't before the earth is set on fire in 12 years. There isn't a guarantee. EV is the future only because we were told its going to be and not necessarily because it was the best choice when we see this shake out on 10 years.

The D's have shown time and again that facts don't matter, feelings do.
 

VRYALT3R3D

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I understand that is a concern. Point is there isn't a "push" to further develop Hydrogen. EV is more viable on the surface level/end product IMO. EV technology is pushed even though they haven't quite figured out:

How to mine for the material/lithium safely and build them to where the net affect on the environment isn't worse then ICE.

oh and do it without being devastating to the environment/climate which they claim to care so much about

oh and having a plan to build a "green" infrastructure to power them (because it pointless if we can't)

oh and the massive undertaking to recycle EV car/Batteries, only after they figure out how to recycle them.

Maybe "they" will figure this out and maybe they won't before the earth is set on fire in 12 years. There isn't a guarantee. EV is the future only because we were told its going to be and not necessarily because it was the best choice when we see this shake out on 10 years.
The reality is a bit different with commercial vehicles. There are quite a few hydrogen trucks coming on the market and many more being developed. It makes a lot more sense for commercial use.
 

L8APEX

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I'm waiting for some idiot politician to say something like "Lets put windmills on the electric cars so they generate power as they go!"
 

SecondhandSnake

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The chips used today will be obsolete in 5 years. The funny thing is that I still see the odd model T at a car show or in a parade, in 100 years I bet we still see those model Ts but a 2013 Tesla will be long gone due to 100 parts that are obsolete and these cars are useless. The best part is the “green” car is the one that is throw away after 10 years LOL. People are dumb.

There will be a point that service will catch up to the electronic cars. The same way you can buy off brand China parts and even turbos, you'll be able to get cheap copy parts for whatever you need. And by that time you'll have third party software options to make things work, the same way people run standalone modules and things like Linux now. They keep building better mousetraps, but the mouse will eventually outsmart them.

What's funny is that Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe. A hydrogen fuel cell car still uses rare earth metals, but is easily refueled and has pure water as the only byproduct. Yet these toxic ass electric cars are hailed as the future... go **** off and die.

Hydrogen is being heavily invested in, primarily for heavy and long range vehicles. Toyota specifically still believes that it's going to be the future.

The stumbling block here is infrastructure. You can put in a charging station almost anywhere, but there's no hydrogen supply on every corner. We've already got power plants scattered across the country, but not hydrogen plants. Not to mention the hardware is extremely expensive when it comes to pressure vessels and compressors, and it takes up a lot of real estate on the vehicle.

I'll also point out that hydrogen also has the benefit of a much faster fill versus electric. With a big enough compressor it can be close to gasoline speed.
 

quad

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I can see this happening. I was thinking along the same lines. I also could see them wanting to limit mobility severely based on having more control but masking it as conservation like you said or "Climate change" even if the materials are somehow available.




I have said this for a long time. I still don't understand why Hydrogen wasn't pushed harder. Guess the powers at be want electric..
Yes and long term the goal is to reduce the world's population.

Put yourself in the shoes of the ultra wealthy and uber wealthy elite. I'm talking about wealth exceeding Bezos and Musk (they are not really the wealthiest on the planet). Why do they need billions of people when many jobs will be automated in the future? Robotic technology and AI will only improve and one day there will be humanoids.

A very large human population could turn on them and take away their wealth, power and influence as inequality grows. There is the risk of political dissent. Look at the USA where conservatives and Trump followers are now labeled domestic terrorists and white supremacist. They are even distrusting fellow politicians that are pro Second Amendment!

Wiping out a large portion of the population is advantageous for the elite. Hell it would even benefit the common people because there would be more resources for everyone to share.
 

Rb0891

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Yes and long term the goal is to reduce the world's population.

Put yourself in the shoes of the ultra wealthy and uber wealthy elite. I'm talking about wealth exceeding Bezos and Musk (they are not really the wealthiest on the planet). Why do they need billions of people when many jobs will be automated in the future? Robotic technology and AI will only improve and one day there will be humanoids.

A very large human population could turn on them and take away their wealth, power and influence as inequality grows. There is the risk of political dissent. Look at the USA where conservatives and Trump followers are now labeled domestic terrorists and white supremacist. They are even distrusting fellow politicians that are pro Second Amendment!

Wiping out a large portion of the population is advantageous for the elite. Hell it would even benefit the common people because there would be more resources for everyone to share.
Like Kingsmen...
 

jpro

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I didn’t read all the comments in this thread so I apologize if it’s already been covered but I have a serious question...if everyone is plugging in their EV, can the power grid handle that?


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Rb0891

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I didn’t read all the comments in this thread so I apologize if it’s already been covered but I have a serious question...if everyone is plugging in their EV, can the power grid handle that?


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No. But don't worry, when it gets too much we can just hype Covid-xx and make everyone stay home.
 

mustangbee

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The actual reality is EVs are never leaving. We're literally in the training wheels phase with lithium-ion batteries and just barely moving to the holy grail of solid state battery, smaller, far less materials, more powerful, far more range. Toyota, Ford, Panasonic, Hyundai, and GM already have huge money in these next level batteries. They're already running transit buses in a France.

What most of you are doing is focusing on the negative and ignoring that by the time the OPs doomsday EV scenario comes around, the next generation of batteries will be here and if you think lithium was the pinnacle, you're sadly mistaken. It's not even close to solid states once they work out the remaining kinks. Toyota and others will have these on the roads by 2024.

UK cobalt-free solid-state battery technology claims major cost efficiencies | S&P Global Platts
 
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Rb0891

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The actual reality is EVs are never leaving. We're literally in the training wheels phase with lithium-ion batteries and just barely moving to the holy grail of solid state battery, smaller, far less materials, more powerful. Toyota, Panasonic, and GM already have huge money in these next level batteries. They're already running transit buses in a France.

What most of you are doing is focusing on the negative and ignoring that by the time the OPs doomsday EV scenario comes around, the next generation of batteries will be here and if you think lithium was the pinnacle, you're sadly mistaken. It's not even close to solid states once they work out the remaining kinks. Toyota and others will have these on the roads by 2024.

UK cobalt-free solid-state battery technology claims major cost efficiencies | S&P Global Platts
That is interesting and I appreciate some actual information rather than someone's wishful thinking. I notice they were testing for grid storage. Wonder if there are any downsides to this to overcome like more weight or something. Seems promising.
 

Weather Man

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The actual reality is EVs are never leaving. We're literally in the training wheels phase with lithium-ion batteries and just barely moving to the holy grail of solid state battery, smaller, far less materials, more powerful. Toyota, Panasonic, and GM already have huge money in these next level batteries. They're already running transit buses in a France.

What most of you are doing is focusing on the negative and ignoring that by the time the OPs doomsday EV scenario comes around, the next generation of batteries will be here and if you think lithium was the pinnacle, you're sadly mistaken. It's not even close to solid states once they work out the remaining kinks. Toyota and others will have these on the roads by 2024.

UK cobalt-free solid-state battery technology claims major cost efficiencies | S&P Global Platts

No problem with EV, problem is the mandates. Problem is that EV mileage is calculated assuming energy generation and transmission to your EV is 100%. Problem is a lot of lab claims that can't be scaled. Problem is that when they decrease certain metals, energy density takes a shit. BTW, they have been working on lithium batteries for over 3 decades, hardly training wheel phase.
 

Rb0891

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No problem with EV, problem is the mandates. Problem is that EV mileage is calculated assuming energy generation and transmission to your EV is 100%. Problem is a lot of lab claims that can't be scaled. Problem is that when they decrease certain metals, energy density takes a shit. BTW, they have been working on lithium batteries for over 3 decades, hardly training wheel phase.
I think he meant evs were in the early stages of development, not lithium batteries. And certainly solid state batteries being in the early stages. You are right on the lab claims though. Let's see a big one, working...
 

Weather Man

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I think he meant evs were in the early stages of development, not lithium batteries. And certainly solid state batteries being in the early stages. You are right on the lab claims though. Let's see a big one, working...

I just try to imagine block after block in MSP-STP where people have no garage and must park on the street. 10's of thousands of cars with a 220 cord running out to the car on a -25F night. No wind or solar and the "legacy" grid has to supply it all. When the power goes off at -25F.....
 

Rb0891

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I just try to imagine block after block in MSP-STP where people have no garage and must park on the street. 10's of thousands of cars with a 220 cord running out to the car on a -25F night. No wind or solar and the "legacy" grid has to supply it all. When the power goes off at -25F.....
Actually 3veryone will have to buy that f150 with the generator to charge their ev. Lol
 

SecondhandSnake

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I didn’t read all the comments in this thread so I apologize if it’s already been covered but I have a serious question...if everyone is plugging in their EV, can the power grid handle that?

As it is now- no. One small local fleet went EV, only to realize that the local power company needed to install a whole new substation to the tune of several hundred million dollars to support it. It turned out to be a much more expensive endeavor than originally anticipated.

I just try to imagine block after block in MSP-STP where people have no garage and must park on the street. 10's of thousands of cars with a 220 cord running out to the car on a -25F night. No wind or solar and the "legacy" grid has to supply it all. When the power goes off at -25F.....

That's the thing- by the time EVs are ubiquitous that ownership is going to be obsolete. The future is going to be autonomous ride share services. Like Uber/Lyft, but no drivers, and the OEM owns the vehicle. You subscribe to their app, and can summon their vehicles to take you from point A to B. Lots of OEMs are already dipping their toes in it and planning around it, including Ford.
 

Weather Man

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As it is now- no. One small local fleet went EV, only to realize that the local power company needed to install a whole new substation to the tune of several hundred million dollars to support it. It turned out to be a much more expensive endeavor than originally anticipated.



That's the thing- by the time EVs are ubiquitous that ownership is going to be obsolete. The future is going to be autonomous ride share services. Like Uber/Lyft, but no drivers, and the OEM owns the vehicle. You subscribe to their app, and can summon their vehicles to take you from point A to B. Lots of OEMs are already dipping their toes in it and planning around it, including Ford.

Could see some aspect of that in urban corridors. If OEM's are dipping toes in it is for lip service. You don't support selling FEWER cars if you make them. The whole driverless car deal is going to run into a buzz saw of litigation with the accidents to come. The lawyers will be going for the deep pockets. How many self driving cars do you have to sell with multiple 100+ million dollar judgements against you? Run over a couple of soccer mom kids and the bans will be up faster than a politician reaching for your wallet.
 

SecondhandSnake

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Could see some aspect of that in urban corridors. If OEM's are dipping toes in it is for lip service. You don't support selling FEWER cars if you make them. The whole driverless car deal is going to run into a buzz saw of litigation with the accidents to come. The lawyers will be going for the deep pockets. How many self driving cars do you have to sell with multiple 100+ million dollar judgements against you? Run over a couple of soccer mom kids and the bans will be up faster than a politician reaching for your wallet.

They can sell fewer cars and make more money because the business model has fundamentally changed. It's no longer making X% margin per item. Why have something that is tied to a physical quantity when you can turn it into a monthly subscription fee that goes on indefinitely? Everything is already transitioning to that model. They can cut out the middlemen of repair facilities, dealerships, etc... And they can serve the same number of customers with less physical cars. You may only need one actual car for five, ten, or more people to run the errands they want. That's like selling one car five, ten or more times and only having to bare the cost of building one.

No argument on the lawsuits. In fact we've already seen that massively put the brakes on development that had them on the road back in 2018. They were all over...then one accident and everyone took one very big step back. Purely speculation but I imagine that law/precedent will get sorted out in time, no doubt in the interest of whoever can line politicians pockets the most. Whether that's the lawyer or auto maker lobby, we'll have to see.
 

Weather Man

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They can sell fewer cars and make more money because the business model has fundamentally changed. It's no longer making X% margin per item. Why have something that is tied to a physical quantity when you can turn it into a monthly subscription fee that goes on indefinitely? Everything is already transitioning to that model. They can cut out the middlemen of repair facilities, dealerships, etc... And they can serve the same number of customers with less physical cars. You may only need one actual car for five, ten, or more people to run the errands they want. That's like selling one car five, ten or more times and only having to bare the cost of building one.

No argument on the lawsuits. In fact we've already seen that massively put the brakes on development that had them on the road back in 2018. They were all over...then one accident and everyone took one very big step back. Purely speculation but I imagine that law/precedent will get sorted out in time, no doubt in the interest of whoever can line politicians pockets the most. Whether that's the lawyer or auto maker lobby, we'll have to see.

Outside of dense urban area's, I just don't think the subscriber model is attractive to most Americans.
 

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