How much timing is too aggressive vs. safe, etc.?

[HPLouis]

I believe Don Lasotas tuning manual says you can run 18 degrees at 17PSI on a stock 03 Cobra on 93 Octane. For any 1lb increase in boost you must drop timing 1 degree. For every 1 point increase in octane you can increase timing either 1 degree or boost 1psi.

So if you were running 94 octane you could run 19 degrees at 17PSI, if you're running 91 octane you should probably be 17PSI at 16 degrees. Fuel usually controls what your safe limit is.

This is what I've followed. Also, Don has never led me astray in the years he's helped me. For the 3.1 pulley, Billetflow said the pulley can give 3.5-4.5lbs over stock boost (8.5lbs). That'll give me 13lbs at the max according to Billetflow (I've only seen 11.78 on the dyno but I'll be cautious and stick with the 13) so that give me 22 degrees and I set it 1 degree under that at 21.

I took a WOT run on the street and didn't run into any detonation so I'll stay there and check it all out on the dyno.

 

[GM2Ford]

22-23* on pump E85.

Seems like a lot of advance timing. 18* to 20* is about how much more horsepower on E85?

Reference back to what CJ mentioned regarding Lund’s tuning info.

E85 is up around 108 octane.

So going off his rule, running 21/22 psi and 22* is safer than the 18 psi and 17* on 93.

It’s all about making the best power/torque. Pretty much everyone ends up in the same boost/timing area on E85.

Why do you say, “pretty much everyone ends up in the same boost/timing area on E85?”

20-22* timing and 21-22#’s boost sounds pretty aggressive as is, even on E85. Right?

 

[c6zhombre]

20-22* timing and 21-22#’s boost sounds pretty aggressive as is, even on E85. Right?

No, it is not. Mines at 22psi and 23 degrees for 10 years. You just have to detatch your mind from pump gasoline when talking about E85. It's about as apples to oranges as you can get. The ethanol will not detonate. You keep adding timing on the dyno until the TQ eventually drops off from peak....then go back to the previous timing setting and call it a day.

GM had an excellent thermal image inside the combustion chamber of 93 gas versus E85....a picture was worth a thousand words. The 93 image had hot spots, cool spots, medium spots, incredibly inconsistent across the top of the piston. The edge of the piston had dangerous red colors. No guarantee at all you wouldnt detonate.

The E85 image? One solid yellow color all the way across. No hot spots. Not a hint it was going to detonate.

 

[01yellercobra]

This is what I've followed. Also, Don has never led me astray in the years he's helped me. For the 3.1 pulley, Billetflow said the pulley can give 3.5-4.5lbs over stock boost (8.5lbs). That'll give me 13lbs at the max according to Billetflow (I've only seen 11.78 on the dyno but I'll be cautious and stick with the 13) so that give me 22 degrees and I set it 1 degree under that at 21.

I took a WOT run on the street and didn't run into any detonation so I'll stay there and check it all out on the dyno.

I probably missed it, but what octane are you running? I have a 2.8 upper and I've seen 12psi on my Aeroforce. I'm sure weather and elevation factors in. I'm only at 18° of timing. I have it locked from 2500-6500. I've toyed with adding more since there's no detonation, but it's hard to mess with something running fine.

 

[HPLouis]

I probably missed it, but what octane are you running? I have a 2.8 upper and I've seen 12psi on my Aeroforce. I'm sure weather and elevation factors in. I'm only at 18° of timing. I have it locked from 2500-6500. I've toyed with adding more since there's no detonation, but it's hard to mess with something running fine.

Hi, I use 93 octane.


Sent from my iPhone using the svtperformance.com mobile app

 

[Bdubbs]

My 92 octane tune is 17lb and 17* timing. However, I rarely run it and never go into boost with that.

My e85 tune is 21lbs and peak timing is 23*.

Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using the svtperformance.com mobile app

 

[MG0h3]

Seems like a lot of advance timing. 18* to 20* is about how much more horsepower on E85?



Why do you say, “pretty much everyone ends up in the same boost/timing area on E85?”

20-22* timing and 21-22#’s boost sounds pretty aggressive as is, even on E85. Right?

I say everyone because that’s where the best power and torque are made and I’ve never heard of anyone nuking a motor this way.

Look at C6Z setup. Car was owned by the guy that tuned my car. A decade at 700rwhp.

I don’t abuse my car but I run it hard like a 23yr old bachelorette. Almost wanting something to happen so I can make a change but it just keeps taking it.


Sent from the El Paso JR college dorm using the svtperformance.com mobile app

 

[biminiLX]

Seems like a lot of advance timing. 18* to 20* is about how much more horsepower on E85?



Why do you say, “pretty much everyone ends up in the same boost/timing area on E85?”

20-22* timing and 21-22#’s boost sounds pretty aggressive as is, even on E85. Right?

What part of MI? Do you have a local tuner?
We have some sweet E85 in this area and your concerns just aren’t reality when it comes to actual results.
On my last combo I’d run 22-24 degrees on a ‘14 GT500 5.8 because peak torque (most timing sensitive area always) and boost was 18-19# but the 2.3 TVS was only at 15-16# by 7000rpm. So we would start with 22 deg but as boost dropped and rpm climbed, it made more power with a few more degrees (24 even 25).
E85 tuning is unique as it’s highly detonation resistant and will make more power than leaded 116.
For boosted street cars, it’s really the perfect solution if you have quality pump consistency.
-J

 

[BlckBox04]

so in conclusion, anything that has high ethanol or methanol content means turn the wick up as far as the car will let you safely.

 

[Bdubbs]

so in conclusion, anything that has high ethanol or methanol content means turn the wick up as far as the car will let you safely.

That's why many run that liquid gold.

Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using the svtperformance.com mobile app

 

[BlckBox04]

That's why many run that liquid gold.

yessir

 

[GM2Ford]

No, it is not. Mines at 22psi and 23 degrees for 10 years. You just have to detatch your mind from pump gasoline when talking about E85. It's about as apples to oranges as you can get. The ethanol will not detonate. You keep adding timing on the dyno until the TQ eventually drops off from peak....then go back to the previous timing setting and call it a day.

GM had an excellent thermal image inside the combustion chamber of 93 gas versus E85....a picture was worth a thousand words. The 93 image had hot spots, cool spots, medium spots, incredibly inconsistent across the top of the piston. The edge of the piston had dangerous red colors. No guarantee at all you wouldnt detonate.

The E85 image? One solid yellow color all the way across. No hot spots. Not a hint it was going to detonate.

That’s very interesting! Makes me feel a little more confident when advancing the timing then.

My e85 tune is 21lbs and peak timing is 23*.

Whoa... sounds like someone likes to party on E85. What kind of power are you at with that?

What part of MI? Do you have a local tuner?
We have some sweet E85 in this area and your concerns just aren’t reality when it comes to actual results.
On my last combo I’d run 22-24 degrees on a ‘14 GT500 5.8 because peak torque (most timing sensitive area always) and boost was 18-19# but the 2.3 TVS was only at 15-16# by 7000rpm. So we would start with 22 deg but as boost dropped and rpm climbed, it made more power with a few more degrees (24 even 25).
E85 tuning is unique as it’s highly detonation resistant and will make more power than leaded 116.
For boosted street cars, it’s really the perfect solution if you have quality pump consistency.
-J

That’s very encouraging! I’m currently residing in the Macomb Township area. My car is in Roseville, which is right outside Detroit. I usually go to the Meijer gas station on Little Mack & 13 mile that sells E85. It’s pretty packed all the time so figured it would be a good spot to grab some.

Also, I do not have a local tuner. Everything has been done remotely. However, my tuner gave me the “okay” to advance timing more than what he already did, but made sure he said “I assume all responsibility lol.” So that has me sorta doubtful now I guess.

I’m currently at 16-18* peak timing on E85.

 

[Bdubbs]

That’s very interesting! Makes me feel a little more confident when advancing the timing then.



Whoa... sounds like someone likes to party on E85. What kind of power are you at with that?



That’s very encouraging! I’m currently residing in the Macomb Township area. My car is in Roseville, which is right outside Detroit. I usually go to the Meijer gas station on Little Mack & 13 mile that sells E85. It’s pretty packed all the time so figured it would be a good spot to grab some.

Also, I do not have a local tuner. Everything has been done remotely. However, my tuner gave me the “okay” to advance timing more than what he already did, but made sure he said “I assume all responsibility lol.” So that has me sorta doubtful now I guess.

I’m currently at 16-18* peak timing on E85.

I'm not sure on power, I'm remote tuned from 04sleeper.

Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using the svtperformance.com mobile app

 

[biminiLX]

That’s very interesting! Makes me feel a little more confident when advancing the timing then.



Whoa... sounds like someone likes to party on E85. What kind of power are you at with that?



That’s very encouraging! I’m currently residing in the Macomb Township area. My car is in Roseville, which is right outside Detroit. I usually go to the Meijer gas station on Little Mack & 13 mile that sells E85. It’s pretty packed all the time so figured it would be a good spot to grab some.

Also, I do not have a local tuner. Everything has been done remotely. However, my tuner gave me the “okay” to advance timing more than what he already did, but made sure he said “I assume all responsibility lol.” So that has me sorta doubtful now I guess.

I’m currently at 16-18* peak timing on E85.

Have you not heard of Alternative Auto and owner Lidio?
He’s basically the closest respected tuner near you, and if you have any doubts, I’d highly encourage you to contact him and consider his tuning.
16-18* at your boost on E85 is leaving a lot on the table.
Remember, it’s not always how much, but where the timing is in the RPM range also.
There’s a reason we have professional Tuners.
Good luck.
-J

 

[c6zhombre]

Also, I do not have a local tuner. Everything has been done remotely. However, my tuner gave me the “okay” to advance timing more than what he already did, but made sure he said “I assume all responsibility lol.” So that has me sorta doubtful now I guess.

I’m currently at 16-18* peak timing on E85.

No offense to that tuner...but you might as well stay on pump gas with that philosophy. 16 degrees?!? I appreciate that tuners desire to edge on the side of caution....but that's like putting the cruise at 55mph on a 70mph freeway. People will be passing you all day long, even the blue hairs.

Are you testing that ethanol at the pump? I would. Just check it out and make sure it's at least 70%. That should allow plenty of timing fun.

If you get fed up with that tuner....you could always contact 04sleeper and see if you can get on his schedule. There is no one I would recommend more than him to delver the ultimate in supercharged Ford E85 performance.

And remember....all of us were there at one point with doubts and hesitations to the world of ethanol.....there are people posting on this thread that did not want to switch to it. Years ago. Now they're full converts and can't imagine going back to pump gas. I personally have talked many into the fact it's absolutely worth it.

Good luck!

 

[GM2Ford]

No offense to that tuner...but you might as well stay on pump gas with that philosophy. 16 degrees?!? I appreciate that tuners desire to edge on the side of caution....but that's like putting the cruise at 55mph on a 70mph freeway. People will be passing you all day long, even the blue hairs.

Are you testing that ethanol at the pump? I would. Just check it out and make sure it's at least 70%. That should allow plenty of timing fun.

If you get fed up with that tuner....you could always contact 04sleeper and see if you can get on his schedule. There is no one I would recommend more than him to delver the ultimate in supercharged Ford E85 performance.

And remember....all of us were there at one point with doubts and hesitations to the world of ethanol.....there are people posting on this thread that did not want to switch to it. Years ago. Now they're full converts and can't imagine going back to pump gas. I personally have talked many into the fact it's absolutely worth it.

Good luck!

Well lol...It’s not just 16*, it peaks at 18* in the upper rpms, I guess. I’m not “too” familiar with tunes & the timing advances and when the increase picks up more throughout.

However, I would like to investigate 20* and even 22* timing. My tuner gave me the option to adjust and add more timing throughout the user options on my SCTx3. But I have no idea where that selection is on the SCTx3. It doesn’t really say “increase to 20* or 22*.”

 

[c6zhombre]

Well lol...It’s not just 16*, it peaks at 18* in the upper rpms, I guess. I’m not “too” familiar with tunes & the timing advances and when the increase picks up more throughout.

However, I would like to investigate 20* and even 22* timing. My tuner gave me the option to adjust and add more timing throughout the user options on my SCTx3. But I have no idea where that selection is on the SCTx3. It doesn’t really say “increase to 20* or 22*.”

Personally....I'm not a fan of that. 04sleeper provided me 3 tunes....that were developed after data logging and a/f monitoring.....one for a 22psi 85%, one for 22psi 70% and one for 18psi pump 93. I do not mess with adjusting timing. I just select off the handheld the proper tune file and load it for the fuel I'm seeing and pulley configuration I need. I haven't messed with it in years. I get solid 85% fuel all year round and year after year. My car sits with ethanol year round. I test pump side every tank to make sure of what I'm pumping in.

Just slapping on more timing via the handheld might not be your cup of tea. You had better monitor and log the wideband like a hawk in those cases. Mine is more care free and I know exactly what to expect if I test the fuel first and make sure it matches the current tune file.

 

[V6&V8SHO]

93 sucks. Good for long road trips. Other than that 2.3 vmp tvs always on the E.

That's why many run that liquid gold.

Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using the svtperformance.com mobile app

The best.

 

[Shadow Grey 03]

25* 17psi ported e85 heaton

We ran 26-28* on my old posi ported setup. On ethanol of course

 

[GM2Ford]

one for a 22psi 85%, one for 22psi 70% and one for 18psi pump 93.

Oh!? So you mean you have 2 different tunes on E85 to accommodate the possible inconsistencies of the fuel? (winter blends, summer blends, etc.)

We ran 26-28* on my old posi ported setup. On ethanol of course

Jesus! Man I want to investigate something at least like 21*. I’m at 18* and that’s PEAK, but I’m hardly even at that high of an rpm lol, blame it on the street car life in Michigan and crap roads :/