Blew Oil Seal on Another Precision

[BigPoppa]

So I'm at the track tonight and halfway down the track the car activates the James Bond smoke screen, so I pull off into the pits and take a look at the turbos.....turns out the other turbo has blown it's oil seal.

That's two Precision 6266 turbos in less than 6 months....

I'm about fed up. I spoke with Hellion and they told me that my oil flow is fine and Precision rebuilt the other under warranty, so either Hellion is full of crap or Precision turbos are crap.

This is getting old.

 

[hitmix300]

ya dude this happened to me three times in the last 1.5 years. i rebuilt the turbo's myself from a 40-50$ rebuild kit off ebay. one time the bearing housing got damaged though and that was a little pricey.

what size oriface are you using for the feedline? lack of lubrication is typically the death of almost any engine part imo

 

[GNBRETT]

yea common problem with Precision. I wud opt for some twin BW Turbo's. their cheap and terribly reliable and spool wicked quick.

 

[BigPoppa]

Well I spoke with Precision today and they have informed me that it is due to insufficient oil flow.

Precision has agreed to help me develop a solution to the problem.

I will be removing the Hellion supplied 0.030" orifice in the original supply line.

I'll update as we experiment, but now I have to pull the other turbo off and send it in for a rebuild as Precision feels that one may be damaged again too.

Needless to say, I have to thank Precision for all they've done so far in helping figure this out.

 

[BigPoppa]

I suspect the orifice was added to the kit due to excessive oil, but the root cause most likely wasn't poor drainback from insufficiently sized return lines, but excessive crankcase pressure preventing drainback.

I'm using breathers on each valve cover, but may need to look at another option. I'll discuss with Precision and see what their suggestion is.

 

[dennisn]

Very interesting. I have same setup. !smoked since day one. Same .030 oil restrictors. Precision swore it was the drains. Hellion says loose is fast regarding the seals.

Please post what you wind up doing.

Just noticing this is 11-14. Mines an s550 but believe concept is similar.

 

[GNBRETT]

in my experience Turbo's going bad is almost never a result of the manufacture and almost always too much oil pressure or not enough....

that kit was designed around the 2011 coyote which has different oiling then the 13-14. are you sure ur not getting TOO much oil pressure? cause that wud ruin ur turbos as well. pretty sure Hellion uses a .30 restrictor in their lines now.

 

[BigPoppa]

Got to keep in mind that pressure is just a measurement of flow restriction. More on that in a second.

Per my discussion with Precision, they want as much oil flow as you can get with their linear bearing turbos.

If there is sufficient drainage, their is no pressure as there is no restriction, which is what they want with their linear turbos. This does not apply to their ball bearing turbos though, where you have to limit flow.

The problem isn't that the turbo is getting too much oil, the problem is that the oil isn't getting out of the turbo fast enough due to lack of good drainage into the oil pan.

Since it appears that the oil return is already a -10AN, I suspect the culprit of the poor drainback is from excessive crankcase pressure.

Hellion must have thought the issue was excessive supply and didn't take into account the really high crankcase pressure would keep the oil from draining back into the pan.

My next step is to either increase the breather size on both valve covers or install a scavenge pump to pull a crankcase vacuum.

 

[GNBRETT]

there are numerous ppl with this kit. why are you having so many issues? its the same kit everyone else buys.

if the problem was a kit design that either wasn't getting enough oil or too much oil then everyone who bought the kit wud be experiencing the same thing. it appears as tho u have some underlying motor issues.

 

[BigPoppa]

The problem doesn't become evident at low boost levels. Those of us running high boost have seen lots of problems.

Hellion even started putting in the orifice in an attempt to address the issue.

...and apparently, Precision has gone 'round and 'round with Hellion about this.

Fortunately, Precision is working directly with me on this.

I'm going to see if I can borrow a dP transmitter from one of my clients to measure crankcase pressure to see if that is contributing to the issue. In the meantime, I'm going to get rid of the tee supply tap and replace it with a "y" fitting and put larger supply and drain lines on both units.

If I find crankcase pressure too high, I'll see about increasing breather diameter in the valve covers or installing a scavenge pump.

 

[geoffmt]

Following, hoping to learn something

 

[dennisn]

I get the bigger drain lines (would've thought -10 would've sufficed) but how's the y and larger feed gonna make a difference?

As for crankcase pressure could you throw an oil pressure gauge in line with the feed line? Would that be accurate?

 

[GNBRETT]

how much boost u run b4 the issue appears? at wat boost level?

The problem doesn't become evident at low boost levels. Those of us running high boost have seen lots of problems.

 

[BigPoppa]

I've only seen it above 10psi. I'm running 13psi now.

 

[BigPoppa]

I get the bigger drain lines (would've thought -10 would've sufficed) but how's the y and larger feed gonna make a difference?

As for crankcase pressure could you throw an oil pressure gauge in line with the feed line? Would that be accurate?

The y will make sure that each turbo gets the same amount of oil as the other. The larger feed will make sure we aren't starving them.

An inline gauge would give a good idea of flow through the turbo, but I want to eliminate crankcase pressure. Not only will it help me determine if it is contributing to the flow problem, I can pick up some extra horsepower if there is excessive pressure I can eliminate.

 

[GNBRETT]

well thats really not that high. I was thinking 18-20 lbs. those are normal boost levels.

I would jus replace the oil lines with new ones for peace of mind and start there. could have cooked the oil in the line causing a restriction problem. it can happen wen the line gets really HOT!

I've only seen it above 10psi. I'm running 13psi now.

 

[dennisn]

Just a follow up. I did happen to flow the turbos last year and think it was like 10 oz per turbo. Hellion said it was plenty.

Now couple things I did do, and now that I finally have it running as it should I do not have the problem anymore. I did install a catch can breather setup that does not recirculate. I also found a spot where the one oil drain wasn't running on a 100 percent downslope.

I think the catch can setup may be what's resolved the issue. Not running the stock pcv on the pass side valve cover.

It may have been the crankcase pressure???? Either way I don't have the white smoke out the exhaust like I did.

Oh, and I was running 10.5 to 12 lbs of boost.

 

[BigPoppa]

Official diagnosis from Precision: Lack of oil

Precision got both of them back to me quickly and I went ahead and put them back on the car this weekend. I removed the orifices from the supply lines and took the car for an initial test drive with no smoking. I'll continue to drive it for a couple of days before getting into the boost. Will update again.

In the meantime, here are some pics of what happens from lack of oil:

 

[TTUhouston]

Interesting issue. I also had some issues with my PCV system recently and am moving towards a breather system (right now open to atmosphere; breather on the way soon) due to boost leak issues with my Paxton. It was leaking through the check valves back into my valve covers on the PCV breather crap.

Reading through the post it sounds like you already have breathers which means if you do have high pressure on your crankcase then the source of that pressure would have to be from the combustion chamber through blow-by on the rings. If you did install a dP you would put one end on the crank case and the other end on the feed line to the turbo? IF your issue is excessive crank case pressure due to blow-by this value would be near 0 (say 2 in Hg in crankcase, 2 in Hg at feed) which would also imply near 0 flow. If the dP actually read a reasonable dP (in inches of Hg I assume?) then that would imply that you DO have flow.

Actually reading a high dP means you have more flow vs less but knowing what a high vs. a low dP actually is in that system would be the challenge. let us know how it comes out!! Some interested engineers willing to lend a hand but without measuring flow (which is expensive) I am not sure if we know yet how to diagnose this issue with the available sensors/etc.

Do you have IAT2s? Any other additional diagnostics installed for the setup?

 

[ford ave]

Official diagnosis from Precision: Lack of oil

Precision got both of them back to me quickly and I went ahead and put them back on the car this weekend. I removed the orifices from the supply lines and took the car for an initial test drive with no smoking. I'll continue to drive it for a couple of days before getting into the boost. Will update again.

In the meantime, here are some pics of what happens from lack of oil:

View attachment 95417 View attachment 95418 View attachment 95419 View attachment 95420 View attachment 95421 View attachment 95422

any updates im really interested to see how it did with out the orfice inline i have had my turbos on for about 2 month now and feel like there is excessive shaft play this leads me to believe its starving from oil please chime in