Anyone seen black "goo" build up on their injectors from E85?

MG0h3

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Im kindof leaning the same. Youd think you would see it in the tester though......

Malcolm when did the problem show up? Shortly after filling up?

Kind of a pain but draining that out and getting a fresh tank may be the best. Youve logged everything. Sometimes the diagnostician in us can overlook the simple answer.

EDIT: just reread your OP, you already did that. You said the FP holds so we should be able to rule out any type of restriction in the lines caused by the goo.
 
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ClubVenom1

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Interesting info I found scouring the web and thought I would share it with you all.

[BEGINNING OF QUOTE] "E85 fuel is a strange beast, it is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. This creates two unique problems; (if you don't want the read all the science, the bottom line is add HEET Water Remover and STP fuel system cleaner for ethanol several times a year and your good to go.)

Ethanol is hygroscopic (loves to absorb water) but when combined with 15% gasoline, the water will drop out of the ethanol at only 0.5% concentration. What that means is, in the morning when it's cool with high humidity the E85 is sucking water out of the air, then letting it drop out of solution and settle in the bottom of your tank. Fortunately there is a very easy solution; once or twice a year add a water remover that has isopropyl alcohol base like HEET Water Remover. The brand isn't important, what you need is isopropyl alcohol based additive. Rubbing alcohol will work, but you will need to add a lot of it, because it contains 30% water to keep it from evaporating too fast when your Honey rubs it on your back .

The second unique problem is, the 15% gas in E85 has detergent added to it, one of which is Poly Iso-Butylene. It is a excellent detergent in gasoline, but it SUCKS when it is in a 50% or greater solution of ethanol. For some complex reasons, it actually becomes insoluble and plates out on injectors and valves. The EPA has know this since 2007, but has not changed the rules that force gas companies to add it to ALL gasoline (except racing fuel). GM and Ford have both tested E85 engines and found that in normal in-town driving the fouling can become significant in as little as 5,000 miles. At highway speeds the fouling slows significantly, to the point that it is a non-issue. Again, there is an easy solution; use an injector cleaner that is formulated for Ethanol.

The specific detergent in E85 that is causing the majority of the fouling is Poly Iso-Butylene. So the problem is the additives the EPA mandates in E85. The additives in the E85 are the same they mandate in gas, but the Ethanol will react with them over time and form an insoluble deposit (sludge) in the tank and on the injector walls. The EPA knows the additives are no good in ethanol, but they won't change the rule. The highest concentration of ethanol in gas tested that did not form deposits is 15% ethanol.

The Petroleum Engineering Professor I have been talking to about the E85 fouling told me that methylal is the most effective, but not the only, solvent for the Poly Iso-Butylene fouling. He also told me that the Poly Iso-Butylene causes fouling only in ethanol blends above 50% and that once the detergent falls out of solution it is not readily dissolved in pump gas or E85. Other injector cleaners may be effective in removing fouling, but note that Methylal is no longer used in any fuel additive, thank you EPA. But STP fuel system clean for ethanol is good at dissolving Poly Iso-Butylene that has dropped out of solution in the gas tank. Once the gas tank is clean, there is no reason to use flex fuel injector cleaners since the ethanol content of pump gas is well below 50%, the Poly Iso-Butylene will not drop out of solution." Otherwise use the STP once a month if you use E85 24/7 or do the gasoline flush. I did find out that the injector fouling occurs mostly when you are doing in-town driving, not at higher RPM.

Gasoline Flush, running the tank near empty (not gauge empty, real fuel tank empty), run 2 tanks of 93 Shell pump gasoline through, then run near empty and go back to E85, your injectors will be clean. I was told that doing this every 6 to 8,000 miles would not only clean the injectors, but the "sludge" that can build up in the fuel tank, without plugging filters. If you do mostly highway driving, don't worry about it. Maybe once every 15 to 20,000 miles, run a couple of tanks of Shell through and you are good to go. Never add gas to a tank that has E85 if you can avoid it, the sludge build up in your tank will be much worst (read get ready to change filters)

Also this was an issue with throttle stutter - rubber end caps on dw injectors melted over, some injectors more than others. don't use rubber tipped injectors with E85.

And E85 produces many more acids when combusted in an internal combustion engine, mostly due to the extra oxygen that comes in with the molecule - which is also the reason for the extra power. Thus change your oil every 3k miles cause it will get extremely high in acid levels if you dont." [END OF QUOTE]

Hope this info help all of you out.
 

MalcolmV8

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Malcolm,

There is a guy having a very similar problem that posted in the Terminator section. I say similar because he states he/his tuner have logged alot and everything looks normal.

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/showthread.php?1102458-03-Cobra-lean-issue-Help

His problem is more of a tuning one. Just a lean spot he can pass through and go into WOT. Mine is a lean wall that is not passable. It also seems to have gotten worse. I can barely give it much throttle and it pegs lean. I have to drive the car fairly gently to get around.
 

Bdubbs

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I run 3-4 ounces of this with every tank. Zero problems
654469a58d6be86e674b98d5320fa2ca.jpg

How long have you been using this? I think I'm going to buy a bottle and put 1oz in every 5 gallon jugs that I use for e85. Sounds like a little extra insurance.
 
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Chase_

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How long have you been using this? I think I'm going to buy a bottle and put 1oz in every 5 gallon jugs that I use for e85. Sounds like a little extra insurance.

Since November 2015.

I did some research myself and there's a multiple other guys on here that run this as well. In addition, I run about every 4th fill up straight 93. No issues with my FICs
 

Bdubbs

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Since November 2015.

I did some research myself and there's a multiple other guys on here that run this as well. In addition, I run about every 4th fill up straight 93. No issues with my FICs

Cool thanks, I'll be picking some up.
 

MalcolmV8

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I pulled my fuel filter last night just for completeness. I know I data log perfect fuel pressure but getting frustrated with what issue is. I have a stainless steel 40 micron mesh and it looked as brand new and clean as the day it went in. Back to the drawing board.
 

Jon82387

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I pulled my fuel filter last night just for completeness. I know I data log perfect fuel pressure but getting frustrated with what issue is. I have a stainless steel 40 micron mesh and it looked as brand new and clean as the day it went in. Back to the drawing board.
Yea..... 40 micron and E85 is bad. Guy on lightning rodder ran into a similar issue running a stock filter and E85. Clogged his injectors pretty good might have even burnt a piston up cant remember. But he talked with fore and they pretty much said dont run anything less than 10 micron witb E85.

I know you said u had the injectors checked but just something to think about.
 

Jon82387

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Also i just looked at the whole thread again but didnt really see it. What is your whole fuel setup??? Are you return setup now?
 

MalcolmV8

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Curious but have no idea on the different outcomes.. why not 10 micron?

Yea..... 40 micron and E85 is bad. Guy on lightning rodder ran into a similar issue running a stock filter and E85. Clogged his injectors pretty good might have even burnt a piston up cant remember. But he talked with fore and they pretty much said dont run anything less than 10 micron witb E85.

I know you said u had the injectors checked but just something to think about.

Because 40 Micron is the smallest stainless steel mesh they make for my Aeromotive filter I have. I should probably replace the whole filter and get 10 micron. I've never had an issue with 40 micron but I suppose why set myself up for something bad in the future.

Also i just looked at the whole thread again but didnt really see it. What is your whole fuel setup??? Are you return setup now?

Yes it's return, been this way for a few years now. Dual 465 lph walbro pumps, -8 PTFE supply/return lines. Fore FI4 regulator, rails and ID 1000 injectors.
 

MalcolmV8

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You 100% positive the regulator is getting a good boost/vacuum source and hasnt come loose/leaking?

Yes and I data log good fuel pressure, perfect pressure drop across injectors, and I also have a fuel pressure gauge on the pillar I can watch visually as I'm driving. Fuel pressure is there and doing what it should.
 

Jon82387

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Yes and I data log good fuel pressure, perfect pressure drop across injectors, and I also have a fuel pressure gauge on the pillar I can watch visually as I'm driving. Fuel pressure is there and doing what it should.
Hmmmmmmm well that rules that theory out...

Done anything to the ignition lately? Maybe lost a ground wire somehow????

I seen u say new motor.... what happened to the old???
 
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Jon82387

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shouldnt be ignition as hes going lean.
Yes you would think so... but when i had issues with my truck breaking up under boost it was because of impropper grounds/not getting good spark.... and the wideband didn't really tell me anything to help diagnose it..... would be all over the place really.
 
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MalcolmV8

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Hmmmmmmm well that rules that theory out...

Done anything to the ignition lately? Maybe lost a ground wire somehow????

I seen u say new motor.... what happened to the old???

Lost ground is a possibility, need to look it over closely again for that. Nothing done to the ignition, did pull plugs, they didn't look bad but put new ones in anyway.
Yes new motor about 1k miles ago. Got sick of the old one, was to slow.

shouldnt be ignition as hes going lean.

Goes lean and then real bad popping missing and bucking which feels like plugs at that point. But you're right if you just gently touch the gas you'll see lean before you feel anything which seems to imply ignition is working.
 

Jon82387

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Lost ground is a possibility, need to look it over closely again for that. Nothing done to the ignition, did pull plugs, they didn't look bad but put new ones in anyway.
Yes new motor about 1k miles ago. Got sick of the old one, was to slow.



Goes lean and then real bad popping missing and bucking which feels like plugs at that point. But you're right if you just gently touch the gas you'll see lean before you feel anything which seems to imply ignition is working.
So the old motor was still in good working condition and never had any issues?

Battery in factory location?
 

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