Religion vs Science debate: bring it in here

James Snover

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Let's stop messing up other threads and bring the religion vs science debate in here. Just so everyone knows: I believe in God. No, I have no proof.

All Holy books exist for one thing: to teach us what we need to know to live a good life and prepare us for the next one.

But that is the _only_ information you get for free. Everything else we need to learn is entirely up to us. And He expects us to use the brains He gave us.

For that, there is no better tool than the scientific method. It alone, of all mankind's philosophies, is the only self-correcting method of understanding how the universe works. The Scientific Method: Learn it, Live it, Love it.

Gawd squad: you guys seem hung up on the fact that science leaves open questions. Yes, it does. If you don't like it, study up on some physics and start searching for answers. He gave you the ability to do it. Standing around in the food court of the mall with a large cross on your t-shirt isn't going to impress the girls nearly as much as you may think. And you are winning zero converts.

Ok, there it is. Keep it civil or this will just get tossed into Smackdown.
 

DaleM

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Gawd squad:

I officially love you even if you do not know the reason all the Holy Books exist. Even you must admit the reason is a leap of faith on your part. I'd say the books were a consolidation of tribal beliefs to influence tribes, groups, or armies to separate themselves from other groups for power and regional influence.

Even x-ianity has such roles as directed by the MEN that wrote its doctrine, the Romans had a lot of reasons to establish a central church.

Science and religion can live in harmony until the issues of proof of the gawds and the beginnings of the universe collide. I see no reconciliation in our lifetimes.
 

paynecasey

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I'm pretty sure while the Bible isn't a science book it does mention a few things.

It talks about trade winds. It describes certain animals *cough dinosaur*. And not only is a great book on how to live a proper life but it is also a history book.

In the Old T you were supposed to eat Pig or bottom feeding fish. My cousin (a food scientist) told me that it is because back then pigs accidentally ate a certain parasite and when a human ate this. There skin would boil because the parasite transferred over.

Doesn't the bible mention earths shifting plates?
 

DaleM

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I'm pretty sure while the Bible isn't a science book it does mention a few things.

It talks about trade winds. It describes certain animals *cough dinosaur*. And not only is a great book on how to live a proper life but it is also a history book.

In the Old T you were supposed to eat Pig or bottom feeding fish. My cousin (a food scientist) told me that it is because back then pigs accidentally ate a certain parasite and when a human ate this. There skin would boil because the parasite transferred over.

Doesn't the bible mention earths shifting plates?

Much of the popular bibles have direct plagiarisms from pagan and other monotheistic leaning religions.
I'd direct you to the Story of Sargon (aka Moses) and its dating as well as the law of Hammurabi.
As far as your brother's story about pigs, it has a lot to do about the superstition (what most except the highly religious would call a superstition anyway) of demons being cast into them than parasites or spoiling meat. Also pig is the closest tasting meat to humans which I'd suspect is a taboo subject with a long history.
What description of a dinosaur are you referring to? Not that it means anything but I have heard this before. Of course this comes at odds with those holy rollers that say fossils are not real or are not millions of years old, this is not a scientific consensus.
 
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Rainmaker

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"He hangs the earth on nothing." - Job 26:7

The book of Job was written in 2000-1800 BC.

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth" - Isaiah 40:22

The book of Isaiah was written around 800 BC.

How did the authors of these books know that the Earth is suspended by nothing in space, or that the Earth was not flat but in fact round?
 

65fastback2+2

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I dont mind science one bit. The problem is when science starts speaking factually when it isnt factual.

My mom had some of the best doctors in the world at the Houston Medical center tell her that there was 100% chance one of my brothers would die in the womb and that she should abort him. He's 26, married with a 4 year degree....to this day they are still baffled.

Science wants to say the universe is 13.8 billion years old and then throw in rapid inflation theory which blows any age estimations out of the water.

Its the contradictions and constant changing that are annoying...and it wouldnt be so bad if they didnt act like things were so accurate and factual.

Tell a scientist its a "theory" of evolution and they flip out "no, its not a theory, we have proof!" Just like wurd2 cant accept that dating methods are mere guesses because he didnt see anything age billions of years to 100% confirm it is that age. Just say "hey, its what we know currently"...instead he goes on and on about how its fact. no it isnt.

Thats my pet peeve with science.
 

DaleM

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"He hangs the earth on nothing." - Job 26:7

The book of Job was written in 2000-1800 BC.

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth" - Isaiah 40:22

The book of Isaiah was written around 800 BC.

How did the authors of these books know that the Earth is suspended by nothing in space, or that the Earth was not flat but in fact round?

LOL, all flat discs are round which explains the fear of falling off the circle. Why did they not use sphere, please look at the root word your circle is written in, it means disc, not sphere.
 

65fastback2+2

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I'm pretty sure while the Bible isn't a science book it does mention a few things.

It talks about trade winds. It describes certain animals *cough dinosaur*. And not only is a great book on how to live a proper life but it is also a history book.

In the Old T you were supposed to eat Pig or bottom feeding fish. My cousin (a food scientist) told me that it is because back then pigs accidentally ate a certain parasite and when a human ate this. There skin would boil because the parasite transferred over.

Doesn't the bible mention earths shifting plates?

"He hangs the earth on nothing." - Job 26:7

The book of Job was written in 2000-1800 BC.

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth" - Isaiah 40:22

The book of Isaiah was written around 800 BC.

How did the authors of these books know that the Earth is suspended by nothing in space, or that the Earth was not flat but in fact round?

My favorite is circumcision on the 8th day...which happens to be when blood clotting in a human is at its highest capability in the entire life time.

no science and the bible just got that correct? ~30,000 days in an average life span and with no science they got it right the first try...only the creator telling them so is plausible.
 

Rainmaker

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Much of the popular bibles have direct plagiarisms from pagan and other monotheistic leaning religions.
I'd direct you to the Story of Sargon (aka Moses) and its dating as well as the law of Hammurabi.
As far as your brother's story about pigs, it has a lot to do about the superstition (what most except the highly religious would call a superstition anyway) of demons being cast into them than parasites or spoiling meat. Also pig is the closest tasting meat to humans which I'd suspect is a taboo subject with a long history.
What description of a dinosaur are you referring to? Not that it means anything but I have heard this before. Of course this comes at odds with those holy rollers that say fossils are not real or are not millions of years old, this is not a scientific consensus.

The book of Job explicitly details a very large beast of some sort - something so large that even spears from fisherman don't phase it:

1-11 “Or can you pull in the sea beast, Leviathan, with a fly rod
and stuff him in your creel?
Can you lasso him with a rope,
or snag him with an anchor?
Will he beg you over and over for mercy,
or flatter you with flowery speech?
Will he apply for a job with you
to run errands and serve you the rest of your life?
Will you play with him as if he were a pet goldfish?
Will you make him the mascot of the neighborhood children?
Will you put him on display in the market
and have shoppers haggle over the price?
Could you shoot him full of arrows like a pin cushion,
or drive harpoons into his huge head?
If you so much as lay a hand on him,
you won’t live to tell the story.
What hope would you have with such a creature?
Why, one look at him would do you in!
If you can’t hold your own against his glowering visage,
how, then, do you expect to stand up to me?
Who could confront me and get by with it?
I’m in charge of all this—I run this universe!
12-17 “But I’ve more to say about Leviathan, the sea beast,
his enormous bulk, his beautiful shape.
Who would even dream of piercing that tough skin
or putting those jaws into bit and bridle?
And who would dare knock at the door of his mouth
filled with row upon row of fierce teeth?
His pride is invincible;
nothing can make a dent in that pride.
Nothing can get through that proud skin—
impervious to weapons and weather,
The thickest and toughest of hides,
impenetrable!


18-34 “He snorts and the world lights up with fire,
he blinks and the dawn breaks.
Comets pour out of his mouth,
fireworks arc and branch.
Smoke erupts from his nostrils
like steam from a boiling pot.
He blows and fires blaze;
flames of fire stream from his mouth.
All muscle he is—sheer and seamless muscle.
To meet him is to dance with death.
Sinewy and lithe,
there’s not a soft spot in his entire body—
As tough inside as out,
rock-hard, invulnerable.
Even angels run for cover when he surfaces,
cowering before his tail-thrashing turbulence.
Javelins bounce harmlessly off his hide,
harpoons ricochet wildly.
Iron bars are so much straw to him,
bronze weapons beneath notice.
Arrows don’t even make him blink;
bullets make no more impression than raindrops.
A battle ax is nothing but a splinter of kindling;
he treats a brandished harpoon as a joke.
His belly is armor-plated, inexorable—
unstoppable as a barge.
He roils deep ocean the way you’d boil water,
he whips the sea like you’d whip an egg into batter.
With a luminous trail stretching out behind him,
you might think Ocean had grown a gray beard!
There’s nothing on this earth quite like him,
not an ounce of fear in that creature!
He surveys all the high and mighty—
king of the ocean, king of the deep!”
 

65fastback2+2

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LOL, all flat discs are round which explains the fear of falling off the circle. Why did they not use sphere, please look at the root word your circle is written in, it means disc, not sphere.

when you look at a sphere from above (as exactly the scripture says) it does indeed look like a disc.

earth%20from%20space.gif


looks like a disc to me
 
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Rainmaker

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LOL, all flat discs are round which explains the fear of falling off the circle. Why did they not use sphere, please look at the root word your circle is written in, it means disc, not sphere.

This is the way ancient people talked about their experience of the world in the absence of any scientific knowledge about the processes at work in the world. Certainly we would describe the world today in much different terms. But then we live 3,000 years later in human history with much more knowledge about the physical world, and a different conceptual model and different vocabulary with which to describe the world.
 

DaleM

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My favorite is circumcision on the 8th day...which happens to be when blood clotting in a human is at its highest capability in the entire life time.

no science and the bible just got that correct? ~30,000 days in an average life span and with no science they got it right the first try...only the creator telling them so is plausible.

Perhaps had your gawds created man correctly there would be no need for the butchering. LOL, sign a pact with a gawd by snipping foreskin, you gotta laugh regardless how religious you are.

http://www.parenting.com/health-guide/circumcision/circumcision-history
 

thomas91169

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My favorite is circumcision on the 8th day...which happens to be when blood clotting in a human is at its highest capability in the entire life time.

no science and the bible just got that correct? ~30,000 days in an average life span and with no science they got it right the first try...only the creator telling them so is plausible.

Sure it wasnt because people realized this by trial and error?
 

DaleM

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This is the way ancient people talked about their experience of the world in the absence of any scientific knowledge about the processes at work in the world. Certainly we would describe the world today in much different terms. But then we live 3,000 years later in human history with much more knowledge about the physical world, and a different conceptual model and different vocabulary with which to describe the world.

So the word they had for a sphere, which they and did they decided to ignore? yes they just slipped up to make you look ignorant. The whole purpose of the bible is fulfilled now.
 

James Snover

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1.) We can't know why all the holy books exist. They've all changed over the millennia because they have all been written by human beings. Changes in meaning brought in by translations, personal biases, even typographical errors in printing, all by itself, ensures that no Holy book of today exists in its original form. The thing to take from them is their central message: don't murder, don't cheat on your wife, don't be a dickhead.

And all of them have had their meaning perverted at one time or another by whoever was seeking political power and used various teachings from various books as suited their needs.

2.) The idea that religion and science must be at odds is not necessarily axiomatic. Yeah, the Pope had Galileo put under house arrest for the rest of his life. They still allowed him to work and publish. And the Catholic church has a great science program. Is it perfect? Is it unbiased? Is it without its own agenda? No human endeavor meets those criteria. It is as useless to look for perfection in the human practice of religion as it to look for perfection in the human practice of the scientific method.

I officially love you even if you do not know the reason all the Holy Books exist. Even you must admit the reason is a leap of faith on your part. I'd say the books were a consolidation of tribal beliefs to influence tribes, groups, or armies to separate themselves from other groups for power and regional influence.

Even x-ianity has such roles as directed by the MEN that wrote its doctrine, the Romans had a lot of reasons to establish a central church.

Science and religion can live in harmony until the issues of proof of the gawds and the beginnings of the universe collide. I see no reconciliation in our lifetimes.
 

65fastback2+2

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Much of the popular bibles have direct plagiarisms from pagan and other monotheistic leaning religions.
I'd direct you to the Story of Sargon (aka Moses) and its dating as well as the law of Hammurabi.
As far as your brother's story about pigs, it has a lot to do about the superstition (what most except the highly religious would call a superstition anyway) of demons being cast into them than parasites or spoiling meat. Also pig is the closest tasting meat to humans which I'd suspect is a taboo subject with a long history.
What description of a dinosaur are you referring to? Not that it means anything but I have heard this before. Of course this comes at odds with those holy rollers that say fossils are not real or are not millions of years old, this is not a scientific consensus.

that doesnt prove plagiarisms at all.

what it does show is that no matter the race or location, all men seek the same sins.

it also shows that punishment for sins is needed as well.

even romans talks about gentiles following the law though they didnt have it. that is, there are universal truths.

do not murder is applicable no matter the society....do not steal is applicable no matter the time....do not lie is applicable no matter the setting.

whether Israelite, Russian, Chinese, Babylonian....those truths are evident when it comes to sin.

Furthermore, since we all descended from Adam and Eve...patriarchal law was passed down before the law of Moses. So, do not murder was passed down from generation to generation as well as when people's multiplied and spread out over the earth. murder is not wrong only because some christian bible says so, it is because God said so from the beginning.
 

thomas91169

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"He hangs the earth on nothing." - Job 26:7

The book of Job was written in 2000-1800 BC.

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth" - Isaiah 40:22

The book of Isaiah was written around 800 BC.

How did the authors of these books know that the Earth is suspended by nothing in space, or that the Earth was not flat but in fact round?

Interestingly enough though, when it was postulated that the earth was in fact Round and not Flat, was it not the Church who negated this claim as blasphemy?

What about when they theorized that the center of the solar system was in fact, not the earth but the Sun? Oh man, the Church hated that one.
 

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