Yes, Impurities that could cause the black crap on the fuel filter.
Guys using E-85 Check your fuel filters!!
- Thread starter VenomSVT03
- Start date
Yes, Impurities that could cause the black crap on the fuel filter.
I sample the E85 we use in town constantly, never seen a bit of contamination in the 5 gallon fuel jugs that we use. The only filter elements that I have ever seen with that kind of black soot have been from cars that had or developed pump issues. When you back flush the filter element and dry the dirt out, it is a carbon / graphite deposit and the only source that I can pin point is the pump brushes. On a '12 with E85, a in tank pump failed, filter and dirt looked exactly like the OPs. Checked the tank, passenger side was spotless. Driver's side where the pumps sit looked like glitter was suspended in the fuel. Consensus from that and the pump supplier is that it is brush material. Pumps are now back at the manufacturer for failure analysis (along with one out of a Subaru that failed simultaneously to these). Pumps are approved / tested by the manufacturer for E85 appliactions.
I'm not saying that you can't get contaminated fuel but I havent seen it yet and the stations that we buy from are new (new tanks and pumps).
without spending a crap load of money on a lab.
Fill a one gal jug, poor thru a coffee filter, see the results.
Have you done this before? What did you find out?
nope, never had cause to. the station I usually fill up at does a big E85 business and is fairly new.
Absolutely! I also use a no colored VP jug so I can look for any residue that settles in the bottom.
Well my car died on me going 30mph last nite. Noticed pumps were not turning on. It was late and dark so I had car towed. Get home. Try to start the car and nothing. Waited an hour more and it started again. I was like probably something came loose? I went to bed and this am I started it but noticed fuel gauge was reading 20psi and sounded like it was going to die again. Turned it off. Checked two pump fuses and they are good. Tried to restart it and no noise from pumps again. I have just realized that the 400 walbro pumps I bought from lethal (1200hp kit) that they used to sell are not e85 compatible! My system has been used maybe 650 miles. Now I'm really confused whether all the crap in my filter was from the newly installed system (dirty tank) or the failing pumps.
Have you looked at the tank itself? Should be readily apparent if there is trash collected on the floor of the tank. If the filter is covered with nonmagnetic black powder with a metallic sheen (once dried), it is most likely from the pumps.
trash in the tank will collect on the filter sock at the pump as well, not just the downstream filter.
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Thanks for info maximum. Will have to wait on my mechanic to find out 
Here's is when we were curious about GSS342 pumps and them causing any issues. FWIW.
All (3) GSS342's ready to be cut open.
Pump Inlet Side.
Pump Outlet Side. (Here you can see the One Way Check Valve)
I carefully used a Dremel Cut Off Tool to cut the casings off.
Casing cut off and Erik peeling it off the pump.
Here you can see the top of the pump and the brushes for the motor.
The pump assembly.
Top pulled off to expose the motor.
Pulling the motor out of the assmebly. (The magnets are very strong!)
Motor assmebly out you can see the magnets.
Bottom of the pump the gerotor assembly comes out.
The magnets are held in by two small clips.
Motor assembly and windings in pefect shape.
Wipe the magnets and black residue comes off.
One of the magnets.
All (3) GSS342's ready to be cut open.
Pump Inlet Side.
Pump Outlet Side. (Here you can see the One Way Check Valve)
I carefully used a Dremel Cut Off Tool to cut the casings off.
Casing cut off and Erik peeling it off the pump.
Here you can see the top of the pump and the brushes for the motor.
The pump assembly.
Top pulled off to expose the motor.
Pulling the motor out of the assmebly. (The magnets are very strong!)
Motor assmebly out you can see the magnets.
Bottom of the pump the gerotor assembly comes out.
The magnets are held in by two small clips.
Motor assembly and windings in pefect shape.
Wipe the magnets and black residue comes off.
One of the magnets.
Here you can see the copper windings and connections are perfect.
There is a plastic coating around the windings that was perfect as well.
Here you can see the brushes.
Another pump under the knife.
Black residue from the magnets.
The minor corrosion on the magnet.
What was left after all were taken apart.
There is a plastic coating around the windings that was perfect as well.
Here you can see the brushes.
Another pump under the knife.
Black residue from the magnets.
The minor corrosion on the magnet.
What was left after all were taken apart.
04Sleeper,
Couple of questions about he pumps you dissected.
1) Were all of them completely dead? Did you bench test them?
2) if you did bench test them, how many amps were they pulling to run?
3) what did the pre / post pump filters look like? Was there black residue like the OPs filter?
4) what do you make of the black marks on the outside of the Walbro cases? I've seen failed pumps with what looks like evidence of arcing between the pump and the hat. But yours looks like the rings in the pump hat were breaking down ( if it was a fore style hat).
5) when these pumps went out, we're they fused individually and did any of them pop a fuse?
I didn't cut open any of the failed pumps I had because the manufacturer wanted them back. Hopefully they will let me know what they find.
Couple of questions about he pumps you dissected.
1) Were all of them completely dead? Did you bench test them?
2) if you did bench test them, how many amps were they pulling to run?
3) what did the pre / post pump filters look like? Was there black residue like the OPs filter?
4) what do you make of the black marks on the outside of the Walbro cases? I've seen failed pumps with what looks like evidence of arcing between the pump and the hat. But yours looks like the rings in the pump hat were breaking down ( if it was a fore style hat).
5) when these pumps went out, we're they fused individually and did any of them pop a fuse?
I didn't cut open any of the failed pumps I had because the manufacturer wanted them back. Hopefully they will let me know what they find.
From my understanding the 405 pumps when first out were rated for E85 use. then the 465 came out and Walbro stated that the 405 were not rated for E85. Justin at Fore Innovations and I believe 04 Sleeper believe the 405 pumps are good for E85.. I am about to pull out my GTSC pumps out and throw in some 405s.. So far with the GTSC pumps my filter looks like new.. But I sample EVERY fill up of E85 I pump into my car to see it "cleaness" and test its content... I would suggest you do the same..:beer:
04Sleeper,
Couple of questions about he pumps you dissected.
1) Were all of them completely dead? Did you bench test them?
We did not test them on a bench. We did hook up each pump individually and flowed fuel through them. (In the tank in the Fore Hat. Testing each individually with each set of wires) Each one was providing up to 60 PSI with no issues on the regulator. All the pumps worked perfect and no loss of fuel pressure.
2) if you did bench test them, how many amps were they pulling to run?
We did not test amp draw. But the 40 AMP BAP did not have any issues and the 30 amp fuse inline was fine and never blew. The BAP was only hooked up for voltage stability and was set between 1-5. Just barely on.
3) what did the pre / post pump filters look like? Was there black residue like the OPs filter?
The Pre-Filter (Fuel pump sock) looked fine. The post filter looked like this.
One thing to note, this filter was after fueling up at a brand new Valero station in Little Elm , TX. After that, we never went back to that station for fuel and started using Kroger again. Went back to a paper filter again and no issues with the new pump in place.
He did have a piece of Pushloc hose that was changed out as well for Fragola. After cleaning with alcohol, we cut the line open and wiped it with a clean cotton rag. Here's what it looked like. You can see black residue from the inside of the hose.
4) what do you make of the black marks on the outside of the Walbro cases? I've seen failed pumps with what looks like evidence of arcing between the pump and the hat. But yours looks like the rings in the pump hat were breaking down ( if it was a fore style hat).
The marks were from the O-Rings on the Fore Hat. This was an older style Fore Hat with the black O-Rings, not the new Viton O-Rings.
5) when these pumps went out, we're they fused individually and did any of them pop a fuse?
The pumps never went out. They worked just fine and we concluded that it was pretty much a waste of $$$ cutting open perfectly good pumps in the name of curiosity. No fuses ever went out.
I didn't cut open any of the failed pumps I had because the manufacturer wanted them back. Hopefully they will let me know what they find.
Please share your findings as well.
Couple of questions about he pumps you dissected.
1) Were all of them completely dead? Did you bench test them?
We did not test them on a bench. We did hook up each pump individually and flowed fuel through them. (In the tank in the Fore Hat. Testing each individually with each set of wires) Each one was providing up to 60 PSI with no issues on the regulator. All the pumps worked perfect and no loss of fuel pressure.
2) if you did bench test them, how many amps were they pulling to run?
We did not test amp draw. But the 40 AMP BAP did not have any issues and the 30 amp fuse inline was fine and never blew. The BAP was only hooked up for voltage stability and was set between 1-5. Just barely on.
3) what did the pre / post pump filters look like? Was there black residue like the OPs filter?
The Pre-Filter (Fuel pump sock) looked fine. The post filter looked like this.
One thing to note, this filter was after fueling up at a brand new Valero station in Little Elm , TX. After that, we never went back to that station for fuel and started using Kroger again. Went back to a paper filter again and no issues with the new pump in place.
He did have a piece of Pushloc hose that was changed out as well for Fragola. After cleaning with alcohol, we cut the line open and wiped it with a clean cotton rag. Here's what it looked like. You can see black residue from the inside of the hose.
4) what do you make of the black marks on the outside of the Walbro cases? I've seen failed pumps with what looks like evidence of arcing between the pump and the hat. But yours looks like the rings in the pump hat were breaking down ( if it was a fore style hat).
The marks were from the O-Rings on the Fore Hat. This was an older style Fore Hat with the black O-Rings, not the new Viton O-Rings.
5) when these pumps went out, we're they fused individually and did any of them pop a fuse?
The pumps never went out. They worked just fine and we concluded that it was pretty much a waste of $$$ cutting open perfectly good pumps in the name of curiosity. No fuses ever went out.
I didn't cut open any of the failed pumps I had because the manufacturer wanted them back. Hopefully they will let me know what they find.
Please share your findings as well.
very interesting, kevin...but why did you go through all of that if the GSS342's were working properly? was it because of what you saw on the post filter contamination or just purely out of curiosity? also, what were your final thoughts on why the magnets had residue? I just want to make sure you think the GSS342s are a good choice before my bro-in-law gets his harley buttoned up :beer:
We were curious to see if we saw anything when we cut the pump open.
After cutting the first one open and not finding much, we decided to cut another one to see. After finding the same thing we figured, might as well chop up the last one! LOL. Same thing.
So Erik ended up wasting $$$ for the sake of understanding. I figured the least I could do was chop them up for him and take some good pictures! LOL.
I believe the residue on the magnets would be there no matter what fuel was used. The brushes showed no abnormal wear and the pumps were still kicking good, so I don't see them being an issue.
I plan on contacting TI Automotive. (The people who own Walbro) and trying to get some info from the horses mouth. I will let you know what I find out.
I figured that much, you two guys are crazy, but crazy in a good way! LOL. thats excellent documentation for not just this forum...but even for the manufacturer to see :rockon: look forward to hearing what TI says.
This is my fuel filter again in 3.5 weeks, CLOGGED!, not sure what it could be
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The silver color looks to be the material from the brushes in the pumps.
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